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Post by CaptainAmerica on Dec 21, 2018 19:48:48 GMT -5
I think you a right about the back carrying over 40% of the weight. I would be very surprised if you wind up with 60% of the weight on the front tires. Engine mass aft of center, drivers mass about centered and only the the relatively light frame more forward. Mine is configured basically the same but places the driver slightly farther forward with my feet about even with the leading edge of the front tires. If my admittedly crude means of measuring (Bathroom scales, one corner at a time) is right I am 53/47 with rider aboard. This is not a bad thing. 60/40 may be good for handling but really bad for traction in a high powered rear drive trike. Those ft wide tires on a Trex are there for reasons beside looks. At 53/47 I feel mine is a good compromise but still traction limited in low gear. With your much wider track and trick anti-roll bar, your handling/cornering will be just fine with that kind of weight distribution. Drive traction may be a bigger concern. You'll have a better trike if its 55/45 instead of 60/40 and I think you'll be closer to that anyway. Let me know how my conjecture works out in the real world when you drive it. |
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Post by CaptainAmerica on Dec 21, 2018 19:50:37 GMT -5
I agree with just about everything you said except my light front end, metal is extra heavy gauge plate, the front is not as light as it would seem, the CG of the trike is directly over the backbone cross member at the bottom without the driver in the vehicle. I can literally use a floor jack and lift all the wheels from that center point, which has its advantages when you want to turn the thing around in the garage by yourself. Once I get myself a decent scale, or bathroom variant that can handle 400 lbs I will do the weights and let you know. Also for the non-Americans in the crowd...voila...metric.   |
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Post by CaptainAmerica on Dec 21, 2018 19:52:21 GMT -5
March 11, 2014 Finally got something done here in North Carolina, used my new welder to make the upper engine mounts. They look like complete nuts but they do the job. The real problem is holding the plasma cutter steady. Tried it out, the engine moves a lot less which is nice but the chassis now vibrates like hell, which is normal I suppose, next up is fixing the linkage for the shifter which is getting worse by the day. Also I have a new clutch with heavier springs, steel sprockets 13(OEM is 17)-44, and chain which will go on when the vehicle gets taken apart for powder coating. I also have all the body panel templates cut out for the front of the vehicle, just need to cut the metal and finish them now. I also bought a cheap bathroom scale and did the weights, the CAD model predicted 796lbs (361Kg) without driver, the reality was 765lb. All of the following was without the driver as I was alone and I can't sit in the vehicle and drop the jack on the scale at the same time. Front to rear was 58/42 split with the wheels weights coming out to be 225 LF, 219 RF, 320 Rear. So the side the side is split almost on center. At the end of the day this means that I have to be light on the acceleration as was pointed out previously. I am excited at the prospect of doing the second chassis correctly and saving around 50lbs on the next revision, no more 10gauge sheet metal.All my chassis will be made of 1020 steel, alloy is a waste of time for fabrication for what I am doing. But I added some pictures below to show you what my current redesign looks like, its not finished, I believe the back end around the engine is going to go back to the same as the original because its easier to fabricate. The biggest change is the a-arm mounts are now angled and all the pipes make straight lines to the front which give more room for the knees.        |
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Post by CaptainAmerica on Dec 21, 2018 19:53:57 GMT -5
Captain, while you have your bike apart for coating, take a look at your clutch basket and see if there is room to machine some steel to add weight to the rotating mass. I have been looking at my ZX10 and it looks like I can add some to the clutch basket and maybe the starter gear side. I think it will help on take off and not have to slip the clutch so much. Dirt bikes have aftermarket heavier flywheels available for them. How's the weather on the right side of the country? |
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Post by CaptainAmerica on Dec 21, 2018 19:55:25 GMT -5
You would have to very careful with the balance. How to attach? Think you went bit overboard on the gearing change, Captain. (no pun intended). ( edit for clarity 3/12) Final drive ratio has gone from 2.58 to 1 3.38 to one? Engine speed with stock gearing at 60 is about 4100rpm. If my math is right, this should go to about 5400 , faster than it would turn in 4th with stock gearing. Should solve the launch problem, but your engine will be very busy at cruising speeds. Dropping one tooth or a max of 2 would be a better compromise. |
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Post by CaptainAmerica on Dec 21, 2018 19:56:22 GMT -5
They are bolted together. If I turn some steel stock down to sandwich between the parts using the same bolts it might work. As long as everything is turned the same is shouldn't affect balance. |
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Post by CaptainAmerica on Dec 21, 2018 19:57:11 GMT -5
Redesign the upper engine mounts and use polyurethane or rubber bushings to isolate them from the chassis. |
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Post by CaptainAmerica on Dec 21, 2018 19:58:16 GMT -5
Sport bike engines are nearly always bolted in solid so they become a stressed member of the frame. Only modern bikes with engines that use isolation mounts that I know of are Harleys that are real shakers. Mine is smooth enough bolted in directly, and vibration level is typical for a modern 4cyl motorcycle. Not sure how much vibration we are talking about here. Have you ridden a GSXR Captain? Vibration levels in general should be similar. If not, there may be an internal issue with the motor. If the vibration only happened after the front mounts were installed perhaps they are not stiff enough laterally. Man, I forgot. Have you installed a proper seat yet? Without padding at your back and posterior, any vibration transfer, steel to bone, will be intensified. |
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Post by CaptainAmerica on Dec 21, 2018 19:59:41 GMT -5
When using your plasma cutter, first spray some anti-splatter to the area you plan to cut, it will provide lube for the tip and allow it to slide across the metal with less effort. I'm sure you already place or clamp a piece of scrap on top of the piece you are cutting to use as a guide. Those two tricks will make your plasma cuts much nicer. In regard to using mild steel vs. alloy, one thing about mild steel is it will bend under impact and absorb energy that your body would otherwise absorb. Start planning your road trips; you are not far from the Tail of The Dragon. That area of N.C. is a great place to ride with many great roads. Jim |
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Post by CaptainAmerica on Dec 21, 2018 20:00:59 GMT -5
Since the engine is not a stressed member of the chassis I would isolate the entire powerplant. The less vibration the better. |
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Post by CaptainAmerica on Dec 21, 2018 20:02:32 GMT -5
Alloy also should be TIG welded and heat treated which is an added expense, besides it being almost twice as much. Just looked at the dragon tail, looks awesome and 4 hours away, i needs some cushions for my seat. The vibration level is probably not that bad, it was just noticeably different, but I do need lateral supports on those mounts, they are just sheets of metal with an end flange for mounting. With regards to plasma cutting, I am under the impression the gun should be held just off the metal, but I concur the use of a flat edge, I use a 2x1 aluminum tube that allows for relatively smooth sliding. Got one of the removable strut enclosure pieces mounted today, another should be done tomorrow if I have time. Headed to Bristol this weekend for the battle at the Colosseum, also Formula 1 is finally back on. Lots of entertainment. |
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Post by CaptainAmerica on Dec 21, 2018 20:04:13 GMT -5
If you head over to the Dragon, be sure to travel The Foothills Parkway and the Cherohala Skyway. Also Fontana Dam, the tallest dam east of the Mississippi and you can drive across the top of it. If you need an over night spot try the Dragon Rest cabins. www.dragonsrestcabins.com/ Very nice people and nice rustic cabins. Jim |
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Post by CaptainAmerica on Dec 21, 2018 20:05:02 GMT -5
I definitely plan to check that out once I am registered and feel safe and mechanically sound going the distance. As far as the tires go, they are all the same, bought them as a set of 4 from the Summit Demo rack for $160, they were the right size and that was to good of a deal to pass up. |
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Post by CaptainAmerica on Dec 21, 2018 20:06:19 GMT -5
1020 low carbon steel is just a standard form of metal you can purchase, its similar to 1018 (which is basic steel you get everywhere) but its stronger because of the higher carbon content. What you want is SAE 1020 Drawn over mandrel (DOM) seamless tubing so there is no weld seam to break on you. Its about twice as expensive but about half the cost of 4130. As far as supply goes I don't know, every chassis book I have talks about 1020 and 4130, most of them are dated about 20 years ago though so their may be something newer that replaced it as the standard. I usually just ask for DOM at the metal shop, people working their usually don't know anything about metal other then the list of numbers they have. 10 is the SAE grade and chemical make up, the 20 stands for 2.0% carbon content (1018 is as you would guess 1.8% carbon). Regardless use DOM, it won't split at the seam as it doesn't have one. On a note closer to home I am having fueling issues I think. I finally got the trike out for a quick run around the block today and it worked for about 500 hundred yards and then sputtered to death slowly and died, I waited a few seconds knowing I wasn't out of fuel and tried it, started right up, went for about 200 yards and then did the same thing with the same restart and then I pulled into the garage. This does not bode well and I have no good way to put a fuel pressure sensor in line with the system. Any ideas from the crowd? The current test option I am going to try later is running it while I jack it up and see if I can kill it by starvation in a reasonable amount of time and a reasonable tilt. Both times I was about 50 feet out of a corner when it started to fade. UPDATE: did the tilt test, probably with to much fuel in the tank, no issues presented themselves. |
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Post by CaptainAmerica on Dec 21, 2018 20:07:21 GMT -5
Suzuki uses a start up circuit. When key is turned on the fuel pump will run for several seconds to provide fuel for start up. At that point ECM requires feedback from engine that shows oil pressure, if not it will not turn fuel pump run circuit on and shortly the engine will stall. Turn key on and do not start engine. Listen, can you hear fuel pump running? Does it shut off after a few seconds? If it functions in this manner, it may be similar to a Suzuki. If so, try hooking a test light to the fuel pump circuit, my guess is the light will light when you start engine (light on key turn on) and go out after a few seconds. And then engine will shut down shortly . That means you are trying to run trike on start up circuit and the fuel pump run circuit never turns on. Jim |
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Post by CaptainAmerica on Dec 21, 2018 20:08:41 GMT -5
Learning new things every day, I had always just assumed that DOM was done by extruding a solid over a mandrel so that it was seamless, I am now less impressed. But good to know. Also, my trike acts very much like a Suzuki because it is one, I have run the bike for a solid 10 minutes at idle no problem, I don't think its a pump not turning on issue. I am more leaning towards starvation from lack of baffles currently, about to go see if I can make it happen again today. Also got the VIN done today by the state, so now I am being held up by my lack of North Carolina license which makes it not possible to register the thing until I get it. On top of that I can't register the vehicle without the actual license in hand so add another 10 days for that. Mildly frustrating, half my fault. More testing today, seems to be starvation of the pump during right hand turns, whether at speed or long in duration. |
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Post by CaptainAmerica on Dec 21, 2018 20:10:20 GMT -5
I love powder coating, represents high quality, durability. Great for show cars and productions vehicles. In our case though, we are working with what are essentially development mules. Perhaps you are confident you have everything right the first time and no changes will be necessary that involve additional welding at the frame. In my case, I am still making changes 4 yrs after the frame was painted. I can go along for months, years and be happy with what I have, before I get an idea that makes me want to drag out the welder again. Body panel changes,component upgrades, etc. I enjoy the upgrades as much as the initial construction. Point is most of us are better off to use something that can easily be touched up, such as a high quality spray enamel. Planning a second frame? Production? Imo, do classic prototyping first. Live with the first frame for a while, get in some extended road miles, become familiar with all possible shortcomings, make and test whatever changes you can without a full makeover. When that can't be improved, and you are still not satisfied, then move on to the next frame. |
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Post by CaptainAmerica on Dec 21, 2018 20:12:04 GMT -5
Captain, If you think it is a fuel starvation problem, you don't need fuel baffles per say. You should look into Walbro fuel pickups and put 3 or 4 of them in. Used in Arctic Cat snowmobiles to prevent fuel starvation regardless of attitude. I used them in my turbo sled build. They way they function prevents starvation. Here's some info for you. www.autoperformanceengineering.com/html/pickups.html |
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Post by CaptainAmerica on Dec 21, 2018 20:12:55 GMT -5
Racers fill their fuel cells with fuel cell foam to prevent fuel moving away from fuel pickup. You can purchase the fuel cell foam blocks from any speed shop and cut to fit. It's quick and easy vs. trying to install baffles in an already built fuel tank and foam will displace very little fuel. Have you checked the mounting of the "tip over" switch? On our race cars it caused us problems. No leaning of chassis in corners and enough G forces to activate the switch. Unscrew the cover on the switch, you will find a metal ring that slides on a curved rail. Take a cut off grinder and cut through the ring on one side, rotate ring cut through again. Both parts of ring will drop off and switch will be deactivated, but switch circuit will be intact. Unplugging switch will not work. Jim |
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Post by CaptainAmerica on Dec 21, 2018 20:14:11 GMT -5
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Post by CaptainAmerica on Dec 21, 2018 20:15:19 GMT -5
In regard to powder coating, I agree with Triplethreat. I powder coated my current trike. I resist making changes, as I do not want to grind off any of the coating and it was way too expensive. I used rattle cans to paint frame of my first trike and I ground it off in many places and made changes/welds and just shot a little more paint on it with a rattle can and was good to go. I like to use semi gloss, it matches/blends better than a full gloss. Jim |
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Post by CaptainAmerica on Dec 21, 2018 20:17:53 GMT -5
So, it turns out I had not properly attached the bike's tip over sensor, it was sitting at a 45 degree angle closing the circuit every time I made a hard left turn. Zip tied that in place and it runs like a dream. I need to now find myself a decent shop with a dyno and get the thing over their and tuned correctly. As far as paint goes I am leaning towards the rattle can myself as this is not exactly the final design and I don't want to hold back from fixing things because of the paint. I even brought 6 cans of gray primer and 6 cans of flat black with me from my Datsun project two years ago. Really I am just dreading taking the whole thing apart to paint it. Maybe someone can answer this for me, how does fuel cell foam work in a tank with a float sensor? Wouldn't it interfere with that a lot? |
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Post by CaptainAmerica on Dec 21, 2018 20:18:57 GMT -5
Fuel cell foam is available in various sizes. You can cut it to fit and cut voids in it to clear items. Jim But how do you get it into the tank as a solid block even with a void cut out for the float? I have a 3" diameter hole for the fuel pump and other then that I would have to put it in before welding and hope the thing doesn't burn up inside. It is a soft foam and can be compressed. Most large Fuel Cells have only a 3 to 4 inch hole and the foam can be squeezed in. You just cut it to fit tightly and with voids for pickups and floats, then squeeze it in place. |
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Post by CaptainAmerica on Dec 21, 2018 20:22:12 GMT -5
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Post by CaptainAmerica on Dec 21, 2018 20:23:45 GMT -5
How is the hollow traverse tube for your shifter working for you? I had to swap mine out for a solid shaft, the tube was flexing too much. Funny you mention that, it actually had a lot more problems with the front to back linkage bending because my L/D wasn't near enough to stop bending in a 5/16" shaft. I have the 1/2" solid rod to swap out for the cross tube but because its a more difficult change I opted to fix the links first and just see if that helped and it did. It has no issue shifting now but replacing that cross link is on my to do list. Right now I am having more problems with the battery not doing very well with the head lights on and needing to finish installing the seat. I stalled it doing brake testing about the furthest I have been from my garage and ended up pushing it back. I also switched back to the stock ecu from the power commander because it didn't have a good fuel map and it runs a lot stronger now. Well see once a proper dyno tune is done whether that was worth the $450. |
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Post by CaptainAmerica on Dec 21, 2018 20:26:24 GMT -5
Sounds like debugging is coming along nicely. Curious about what kind of wheel travel (compression/rebound) your computer modeling gave you and if it actually came out that way. I don't see any provision yet for the diagrammed anti-roll system. Still planned right? Don't mean to rush you, know you got a lot on your plate and that is something that can wait. Again just curious about how well that will work out. I'm toying with the idea of installing a bell crank system on mine. I bought a CanAm Spyder anti-roll bar a year ago, but could not make it work with my frame/suspension configuration. The bar is only 20"long. I have figured a way to use it (on paper anyway) with a bell crank system. There could be a lot of trial and error for me, so whatever I could learn from your experience would be great. |
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Post by CaptainAmerica on Dec 21, 2018 20:28:28 GMT -5
New video from NC, first time with the new camera, next time I'll make sure my head is not the prominent feature. I have not actually measured the motion but its built to the spec on the CAD model so I would expect it to be very close to the same at 2.75" of travel up and down. I went down to the garage to look at the roll bar setup after seeing your question, it looks like it should work. I just went ahead and bought the rod ends to make it happen and I already have the threaded tube inserts and the tubing. So its just a matter of time. I also did a quick inspection of the lower front rod ends and they are beginning to bend so that puts more stress on moving up the timeline of replacing them. The annoying thing is I have the replacements they just don't make high misalignment pieces for that size racing rod end so I have drawn up custom inserts but I have not gotten around to actually making them. |
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Post by CaptainAmerica on Dec 21, 2018 20:29:14 GMT -5
The wide angle lens makes your front wheels appear to have mega toe in. Looks pretty awesome. Take offs are a lot smoother now. |
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Post by CaptainAmerica on Dec 21, 2018 20:30:04 GMT -5
quote author=" jim99" source="/post/3632/thread" timestamp="1396320477"]Check your safety belts for the prpoer lacing. You need to "lock" the three bar so that there is no slipping of the belts if you ever need them. Check this page simpsonraceproducts.com/pdf/inst/Web%20Installation.pdfJim P.S. - Everyone else out there. CHECK your belts, it's too late to check them after you need them, coming from someone that has "used them".[/quote] |
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Post by CaptainAmerica on Dec 21, 2018 20:31:03 GMT -5
Thanks for the heads up Jim, this is a good thing to do. I should be registered or well on my way tomorrow, I talked to DMV today and they were all ready to go but weary of my complete lack of receipt record keeping so I was asked to create an excel sheet with a break down of cost to make my affidavit for custom built vehicle here in North Carolina. So tonight I threw this together, I do not take into account the cost to manufacture anything that I made at home or had cut and then completed in the garage. Add about 1k for CNC plasma and waterjet cutting services and about 3k extra on the bike which I have gotten some of back selling unused parts. I wanted to add the excel table with the cost breakdown per part but the board posting format does not play nice with excel sheet, I have Added it as an attachment Value Break Down CHASSIS Metal by Weight ($/lb) Brackets Battery Seat Belt Belt Mount Bolts Mirrors Switches Head Lights Brake Light Turn Blinkers Pedal Bearings Pedals Throttle Cable Wiring by Reel Wiring Crush Ends Rubber Grommets Wiring Mounts Dzus Body Mount Clips Shaft Clamps Master Switch SUBTOTAL 2100 ENGINE Engine + Trans Clutch Hydraulics Fuel Tank Yamaha Radiator Radiator Silicon Piping Shift Link Rod Ends Shift Link Bushings Engine Mount Bolts Radiator Fan Exhaust Battery Wire per Foot Radiator Hose Clamps SUBTOTAL 2606 SUSPENSION A-arm Metal by Weight ($/lb) A-arm Threaded Inserts High Str. Rod Ends Rod Ends QA1 Shocks Hypercoil Springs Bellcrank Bearings Uprights Metal by Weight Wheel Bearings and Seals High Misalignment Inserts Wheels Studs Spindles by Weight Rear Swing Arm Rear Shock Chain Sprockets Bell Crank Bolts Suspension Bolts Wheels 17" Lug Nuts Tires (used) Rear Wheel Bell Cranks by Weight ($/lb) SUBTOTAL 2542 STEERING Steering Rack Steering Wheel Quick Release Rack End Joints Steering Rod Ends Column U-joint Column Bearins Rack Mounts SUBTOTAL 1671 BRAKES Master Cylinders Rotors Calipers Brake Lines Tubing & Fittings Bias Bar Rotor Hats Rotor Hat Bolts SUBTOTAL 961 TOTAL 9880 |
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