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Post by Admin on Dec 20, 2018 21:31:21 GMT -5
In the second week of November i put a deposit down for the new Can-am Ryker trike. The dealer told me i may not get the trike until late february or early march. I was disappointed but had to wait, Oh Well. Then on december 13 the dealer called me and said my Ryker was in and i could pick it up on the 15th. So i went down on the 15th and got the spiel from the salesman about the trike And drove it home. On the way home i decided to take a long route to the house to test it out. 55 miles later i backed the trike into my garage. Yes it has a gear drive reverse with a lever you can push or pull with your left foot just above the foot peg. From what i could see of the gearbox it looks like a plain F/R box and i think you can go just as fast in reverse as in forward. I will have to find the drawings for the trans if possible. I say this since the transmission is a CVT in a vertical plane with the bottom sheave that hooks into the driveshaft to the rear wheel. Unlike the can-am spyder, there is only the ratios between sheaves to control your speed. OK, first day likes and dislikes: Since i am a very picky type of person there are more dislikes than likes from the get go. 1. I didn't like the seat back edge since it dug into my butt right away. It's a bit short in height. 2. You have to twist the throttle a bit more than i like to get the CVT to kick in. I wish it would start moving a little sooner. 3. The drive shaft is very clunky to me, very much like the old BMW shaft drive motorcycles. It just nags me a bit. Meanwhile i do like that when you let off the throttle the CVT slows the trike down pretty quickly. You barely have to touch the brakes to completely stop the trike. 4. I have already learned to not drive down the middle of the street. The rear tire hits the reflectors that are placed in the middle of each lane on streets. It creates a small bump you can feel on the bike but makes a large sound over each one. So now i drive a little to the side of them. 5.While there is adjustable foot pegs and handlebars on the trike, the footpegs are already adjusted all the way forward, but i still would like them another inch or two even further forward. As it is my stance is very similar to a standard motorcycle stance were your lower legs are almost verticle on the pegs. Meanwhile the handlebars are adjusted all the way back but it is very comfortable there for me. I and 6 foot tall, my leg inseam is 32 inches and my reach to the handlebars is 20 inches. I guess canam doesn't think people over 6 feet will buy a ryker. 6. Perhaps it's new parts or just my driving but the wind while driving makes the trike have some small darting movements, even in a straight line. Perhaps these problems will get better as the trike breaks in all the new parts. 7. If you don't like a motor that seems to be high reving at cruising speeds you won't like that the ryker does. With a shaft drive and a CVT i doubt this will change. And then the likes 1. handlebars are perfect for me. 2. It is quick on acceleration. Went for a ride on the 18th bundled in my leather jacket and heavy pants. I had a corvette driver ask me to drag race him from a light. I told him just a short one because i'm still breaking in the trike. Man, it felt good to blow him off until i hit 80mph. Then i let off the gas and he blew by me. This thing is very quick on the CVT. Way faster than my honda 750 shadow to 80 and you don't need to shift gears. I am glad i went for the 900 motor in the trike although i think the 600 ryker will be pretty quick also. I got a little busy handiman fixing problems with 4 peoples homes for a couple of days and then had a cold day that i didn't feel like riding around in. I hope to be able to ride every couple of days soon. Something i noticed is you need to cozy up to the back of the gas tank and tuck your knees up against the sides so you can keep your body upright while taking corners and curves. If you lay out loosly, and don't tighten up, you feel weird leaning your body while the trike doesn't lean at all.I stood on one foot peg and measured how far the trike leans in my garage and it only drops 1&1/4 inch with my 225 lbs on the peg. Guess i've been on motorcycles too long and need to change how i drive with a trike. For your knowledge the gas tank goes from the handlebars to below the seat mount just in front of the seat. It holds 5&1/4 gallons which should be good for over to 200 miles. I will add some pictures of me with the trike and more things i notice while driving later on after i get some riding time. This is the cold and rainy season for me here in florida for the next few months. Funny this is the only picture of a Ryker with shiny black side covers like my ryker. Guess i need to take my own pictures.  And here are my own pictures:    It has a very strange front suspension . The shocks on the front look as if they olny have 2 inches of travel.  srx660 |
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Post by davej98002 on Dec 20, 2018 22:19:48 GMT -5
Learning to ride a CVT bike is not hard once you get use to the quirkyness. Most Motorcycle Mag editors when giving a Burgman 650 its first ride said "The Clutch was slipping most of the time". NOPE! the CVT stays in a lower ratio as needed.
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Post by davej98002 on Dec 20, 2018 23:16:35 GMT -5
I did send an email to my local CanAm dealer today to see if they have one I can look at.
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Post by joesarasota on Dec 21, 2018 19:10:29 GMT -5
Congratulations Jim, the Ryker while being at a lower price point than the Spyder is better in a lot of ways, like the CVT, the shaft drive and the electronic stability system with various modes. I wish the Ryker was around a year and half ago when I bought my used Spyder. The Spyder with its 990cc is also very high revving, the suspension has a lot of travel so the ride is generally very smooth. My T-Rex build with the Honda Silverwing CVT 600cc is very smooth shifting and quick 0 to 60, it also slows the trike down substantially when you let of the gas, you get use to driving it differently than a car. I don't think I could beat it in a race with the manual paddle shifting Spyder., even though it has more Hp there is definitely a lag moving through the gears vs the CVT. If you're ever interested in coming south to Sarasota I would love to see the Ryker and do a ryde ride together, best of luck with your Ryker!  |
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Post by Admin on Dec 22, 2018 22:27:39 GMT -5
Today i got the paperwork on the loan i took out for the ryker. My original plan was to pull $12,000 out of my IRA and just pay off the trike. Now, 2 things has changed that. First, i forgot that i took out a 5 year 100% warranty on the trike which i thought was going to be about $1000. The real price is $1440. So, this has raised my out the door price to $13,246. The second thing is i also just found out by a letter from the IRS that in six months i will be forced to withdraw $1726 out of my IRA on 2019. Of course, the IRS has decided that i must pay about 12% taxes on the withdrawal. Hopefully Trumps tax reductions with help lower the costs, but it sure seems that the government does NOT want to help the Citizens of america. the good thing is this helps pay off the trike, But i still think i will make 3 equal payments to pay the trike off. The payment plan i took was the Can-am "pay it off in 6 months and get 0% interest".
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Post by davej98002 on Dec 23, 2018 0:47:39 GMT -5
Not to get political but... The government is and has been a whirling dervish of self feeding ineptitude.  If your IRA is doing as good as mine, since Sept 2018 to Friday we have lost over $123,000.00 in fund value.
Being 100% retired and simi living off of my IRA, that is over 8 years of supplemental pay gone in 3 months. Yes it may recover, may NOT. 
And not to be making fun of the "Whirling Dervish" group out there. They are amazing. I've watched them in Turkey back in the 1980's. Watch them:
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Post by Admin on Dec 24, 2018 12:13:11 GMT -5
This is my first tutorial for the ryker. I do this because i find the owners manual to be quite abysmal. So i do the work Can-am should have done and i do it for free. So i wanted to look under the hood and see what things are. Problem was i couldn't get the hood cover piece off and i didn't want to destroy the plastic hooks trying to get it off. So i kept looking and testing gently until i figured it out. There are 4 hooks molded into the hood cover, 2 at the top and 2 at the bottom. The top 2 hooks slide in and out of a small rail. Not hard to find, just set the hooks just to the front of where you see the long holes.Then set the bottom of the panel down, and push in and down gently and they will lock all 4 hooks in place. Test by pulling up on the bottom sides of the panel. If you did it right it won't move. It the panel pulls up at the bottom you didn't hook it in. If the top moves around then they are not in place. All 4 hooks move into the proper place at the same time. the panel in normal position  The hood panel off  To get the panel off you need to reach behind the bottom sides of the panel and feel for the 2 clips there. There are 2 parts to each clip. When you feel the clip, move your finger toward the back. You will feel a second clip behind the first one. Push that clip in with your finger and pull up a little bit and toward the front of the body. the panel should come off easily.   Here's the clips location and what they look like. My fingers are where you pull up.   So, now the fun part. Place the top hooks right in front of the slotted long holes. They can only go in the slot one way. Then line up the bottom sides of the panel to where it is even on both sides and push down and back to lock them in place. Use your finger to try pulling the panel off at the top and bottom. If it pulls away it is not hooked. It should barely move at all. Look at the gaps around the panel. It should look like this.  It Should NOT look like this.  I will keep adding more as i get to know my Ryker. The reason for this tutorial is that while i was at the Can-am dealers one of the customers asked me if a broken clip could be repaired. I just said i don't know but i looked at his trike and told him it could but it might change the cover's plastic color since you would have to melt a repair piece to the old clip. I said i couldn't do it. That is why i am being very careful taking apart my Trike. |
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Post by davej98002 on Dec 24, 2018 13:39:25 GMT -5
This is a major problem for most bikes that have a lot of "Tupperware" hung all over. Just about every Suzuki Burgman has broken clips. As the ABS plastic ages it get brittle.
They could have made a solid steel clip that would screw down to that nose cover for longevity.
I bet in a year someone will come out with a dress up kit for the Ryker. Some do not like the Snowmobile styling, others do.
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Post by Admin on Dec 24, 2018 18:56:54 GMT -5
That is one of the major "Not Liking" part of the Ryker i have. Almost all of the body is plastic, including all the fenders and the trim around the seat. Even the bottom of the seat is part of the side plastic around the gas tank. it is held to the tubular metal seat support with 2 torx screws(size30) the rest of the panels around the seat foam is screwed to the seat bottom with 2 size20 torx screws per side and the rear portion of the seat trim is slotted into the side pieces and again 2 size torx screws up to the seat bottom. the foam pad is held in the seat bottom with 4 T shaped foam blocks in 4 square t-shaped holes formed in the seat bottom in a 6x8 square area(approx). Those foam blocks are a PITA to get back in the seat bottom. I ended up using 2 paint stirrer's to hold one side of the blocks down in the seat pan and folded the seat over to squeeze the other side of the 2 blocks on 1 side in the holes. Then did the same with the other side while my wife pushed hard on the fixed side to keep them in place. Still took 3 tries to get it done. Then there is the steering! While it steers just fine, Can-am did the steering pretty cheap. It looks like a enlarged go-Kart steering setup to me. The steering shaft from the handlebars must have a flexible shaft inside a steel sleeve going down to the brace near the suspension. It snake in 2 different directions in about 3 feet. A bracket is welded to the flexible shaft that has a bushing at the end behind the bracket. There is rod tying the 2 brackets together with ball joints. On the right side of the suspension there is another bracket bolted in the middle to the framework with ball joints top and bottom to the top steering rod and at the bottom to the tie rod to the spindle. The picture's kinda show it but there's not a lot of room to take detailed pictures. All in all, built kinda cheaply. Glad i have the 5 year warranty because i am going to concentrate on building my personal trike and when it's ready for the road, i'll sell the ryker. I thought about building a body for the Ryker but i doubt i will do that now. I am liking my homebuilt trike better now. simpler and better quality parts. so heres the pic's. The seat base(part of the whole side body panel) with what looks like a tilt sensor molded in it.  The bottom of the foam seat with the 4 t-shaped foam clips to hold itv in place.  Side panel screws to hold the panel to the seat pan.  Rear seat cover panel screws.  The 3 piece under seat cover panels. Sides are slotted into rear piece then screws are tightened.  Left and right on below pictures are with driver sitting on the seat. Bent steering tube going down to bracket.  Steering bracket (Bolted to frame in the middle)with center tierod(heim joint end) above. Steering shaft center bushing below the bracket. lower part of bracket(can't see it) is heim jointed to rod connected to spindle  The right hand bracket(again center bolted to framework)with another sensor? with the center bolt. You can't see the steering rod going to the spindle below the sensor.  Here's the wheel steering angle compared to the handlebars. It still takes 22 ft to turn around.  I'm really glad they put a reverse gear on this trike. Since i have to do a 90 degree turn to get it in my garage, it's nice to back down my driveway so i can shut it off and push in the garage facing out for the next ride. I'm riding it somewhere every day now. That's enough for today. |
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Post by roadhousecharley on Dec 25, 2018 9:18:01 GMT -5
Darting was the first thing I noticed about the preproduction can Am Spyder. I assumed it was a quirk of the unit I was riding. Disappointed they haven't fixed that. I suspect it's an artifact of handlebar steering.
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Post by davej98002 on Dec 25, 2018 12:26:38 GMT -5
Go Kart steering is a shaft with a 90 degree L bracket on or near the end, same as a "Pitman Arm" on most older steering boxes.
In the CanAm's they add a power unit to them. They give them too much assist at times so it does feel twitchy.
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Post by Admin on Dec 25, 2018 16:08:59 GMT -5
The Ryker does not have power steering. I think the darting is caused by the driver because the steering is very quick to turn. It's very easy to oversteer with this trike. The wind can cause the darting when the direction is not parallel to your driving direction. I noticed this on I-75 when i passed out of the tree lined areas into the open field areas. I really like this trike for cruising around town except for the 22 foot turning circle to do a 180. I also miss that you Can't lean down and counter steer to sharpen the turn like a motorcycle. Maybe a Ryker with tilting suspension(probably never happen).
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Clay
New Member
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Post by Clay on Dec 25, 2018 22:05:24 GMT -5
The Ryker does not have power steering. I think the darting is caused by the driver because the steering is very quick to turn. It's very easy to oversteer with this trike. The wind can cause the darting when the direction is not parallel to your driving direction. I noticed this on I-75 when i passed out of the tree lined areas into the open field areas. I really like this trike for cruising around town except for the 22 foot turning circle to do a 180. I also miss that you Can't lean down and counter steer to sharpen the turn like a motorcycle. Maybe a Ryker with tilting suspension(probably never happen). I'm no expert, so forgive me if I'm completely mistaken. I think the darting is caused by neutral steering geometry and the fact that the front wheels and tires represent a lot of unsprung weight which is acted upon by the road surface. Absent hydraulic power steering to buffer the road action results in heavy micro-feedback through the steering apparatus directly to the operator. I tested a Spyder back in 2008 and noticed taming this feedback required a bunch of upper body strength. edit: I wonder if adjusting the camber would help keep the wheels from constantly tracking left and right (also called bump steer I just found out) |
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Post by davej98002 on Dec 25, 2018 22:14:37 GMT -5
I wonder if there was a way to add in a bit of caster to the front. Or to add a dampener to the front steering. OR both.
Caster angle acts like making the front of the tires pointing up hill so the bottoms are resting down hill. So when you turn left or right off of center, the bottom of the tire is pulled up hill and the tires want to go back to center and be at rest again.
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Clay
New Member
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Post by Clay on Dec 25, 2018 22:24:30 GMT -5
I wonder if there was a way to add in a bit of caster to the front. Or to add a dampener to the front steering. OR both. Sorry, I was in the process of editing and didn't see your post. Porsche guys dial in negative camber for the track to help keep the car planted in the corners and neutralize bump steer. edit: if the Ryker doesn't have a steering damper that would be a great upgrade. |
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Post by liteway on Dec 25, 2018 22:39:24 GMT -5
I think you have nailed it.
When I changed out my front end components to allow larger brakes and took off superlight atv components (10 in wheels, 6in discs and alu. uprights) and replaced them with components from a Can AM Spyder that were nearly twice as heavy, these undesirable issues arose or were magnified.
And my steering, like that of the Ryker is only dampened by my hands and arms, no rack & pinion or hydraulics. I am looking to install a steering damper to filter some of that road feedback to regain the stability I had before.
I am hoping for no appreciable increase in steering effort or that could make a new problem.
I'd bet the Ryker could benefit from a damper as well.
Builders would be wise not to be tempted to use full size auto parts on their light weight trikes just to give them a certain look. Large proportional unsprung weight is a dynamic disaster.
EDIT Did not see the above posts till I finished mine. My post was a reaction to Clay's first post. Sorry, should have used a quote.
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Post by davej98002 on Dec 25, 2018 22:40:02 GMT -5
Clay, I was editing my post again when you posted.
Most cars want a bit negative camber to plant the outside tire into the pavement. Race cares want MORE. But street cars will wear the tires faster and gas mileage will also go down some.
But street cars need some Positive Caster to add centering to the wheels.
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Post by liteway on Dec 25, 2018 22:41:54 GMT -5
Getting a bit crossed up here, ain't we guys?
I have experimented a bit with caster as my front end allows easy adjustment. Cannot tell the diff between 4 degrees and 8 except steering gets bit heavier.
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Post by davej98002 on Dec 25, 2018 22:48:01 GMT -5
Andrew covered all this in his Spartan Build. He covered Caster, Camber, Toe and Bump steer. Also covered was sprung and unsprung weights.
Lloyd, Yes we are.
On your special steering system you do not need extra weight in the swing. I'd keep it at about 4 degrees Positive.
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Post by liteway on Dec 25, 2018 22:54:17 GMT -5
Clay, I was editing my post again when you posted. Most cars want a bit negative camber to plant the outside tire into the pavement. Race cares want MORE. But street cars will wear the tires faster and gas mileage will also go down some. But street cars need some Positive Caster to add centering to the wheels. Yep, more caster does help centering, but as more lock is applied, changes in ackerman angles have a more noticeable affect on centering. Get the ackerman wrong and the steering will want take itself to full lock. |
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Post by roadhousecharley on Dec 25, 2018 23:09:48 GMT -5
I am convinced a non tilting RT needs variable rate steering if using a handlebar. As I understand "go kart steering", there's a tab at 90 degrees to the steering shaft point up and forward. That will provide the opposite in variable steering that's desired. The tie rods will move further per degree of input in the center position than the extreme positions. Seems to me a better design would be 2 tabs at 90 degrees to the steering shaft pointing toward each wheel. This would provide a slower ratio in the center and higher ratio where you want it at the extremes. Steer by wire with a mechanical backup would be ideal but that's out of my reach.
Steering wheels with lower steering ratios than a handlebar can provide just work better for non tilting RTs.
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Post by liteway on Dec 26, 2018 0:17:04 GMT -5
I plan on adding an Olins damper to my central tie rod in the not to distant future,
I'll let you guys know how it works out.
On my old front end set up exchanging the neoprene inboard a arm bushings for needle bearings had a very positive affect. With the new set up, I'm back to noeprene again and looking for some needle bearing replacements for those.
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Post by liteway on Dec 26, 2018 9:00:24 GMT -5
I am convinced a non tilting RT needs variable rate steering if using a handlebar. As I understand "go kart steering", there's a tab at 90 degrees to the steering shaft point up and forward. That will provide the opposite in variable steering that's desired. The tie rods will move further per degree of input in the center position than the extreme positions. Seems to me a better design would be 2 tabs at 90 degrees to the steering shaft pointing toward each wheel. This would provide a slower ratio in the center and higher ratio where you want it at the extremes. Steer by wire with a mechanical backup would be ideal but that's out of my reach. Steering wheels with lower steering ratios than a handlebar can provide just work better for non tilting RTs. Hi Roadhouse. On the Can Am Spyder, and off road 4 wheelers I am familiar with the "tab" or arm at the end the steering shaft is neither 90 degrees to the steering tie rods (as with many go karts) nor inline with them as I think you are suggesting to slow down on center response ( it would, I agree) Instead the arm has 2 separate attachment points for the tie rods on either side that form an inverted "V" at the end of the steering shaft . So the on center position does not start at the 12 oclock as with karts or the 9 and 3 as you suggest but at 5 and 7. Hope I am making sense. That tends to make the steering a bit more linear. I Think the main engineering fault here is that the tie rods are longer than the A arms resulting in bump steer. They try to minimise this with unusually long A arms, but don't quite get there. Could be wrong about that. Wonder if any Spyder/ Ryker owners here would be interested to measure bump steer in the real world? Later: Did I understand right? A tab at 9 and a tab at 3 180 degrees apart pointing toward the wheels? This would result in the wheels turning in opposing directions at the same time. |
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Post by roadhousecharley on Dec 26, 2018 14:21:33 GMT -5
You got it liteway.
With "go cart steering" (because I don't know what else to call it) I think it's impossible to get the geometry right to eliminate bump steer as long as there's any suspension travel at all. I'm really surprised Can Am hasn't come up with something better. The "darting" of the one and only Spyder I ever rode was unacceptable.
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Post by liteway on Dec 26, 2018 14:37:33 GMT -5
You got it liteway. With "go cart steering" (because I don't know what else to call it) I think it's impossible to get the geometry right to eliminate bump steer as long as there's any suspension travel at all. I'm really surprised Can Am hasn't come up with something better. The "darting" of the one and only Spyder I ever rode was unacceptable. Yep, I think they used their atv type steering (which works fine at med/low speeds in the dirt) strictly for reasons of cost. |
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Post by liteway on Dec 27, 2018 17:15:36 GMT -5
Don't want to be to negative here. I have never driven a Ryker or a Spyder so my opinion should be taken lightly or ignored. Many experienced professionals have reviewed these rides with positive results. Whatever faults it may or may not have, it looks fun to ride and I would not mind taking a spin on one.
As for this forum, we have the resident expert on the topic here to report his owner satisfaction, which with this thread he has already began to do.
Lookin forward to future reports, SRX.
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Post by joesarasota on Dec 27, 2018 22:18:19 GMT -5
 With regard to steering, after driving my Can Am Spyder for just under two years my take is as follows: I purchased my 990cc 105hp 2009 Spyder in Feb. 2017 with about 3500 miles, so basically it was almost new, the previous owner hardly drove it averaging only 437 miles per year. The Spyder has variable electric power steering or what they call dynamic power steering: DPS, this system was designed to provide steering assist at low speeds. The 1st problem Can-Am had was an electronic failure within the DPS module circuit warranting a recall of the $1200 DPS unit, the 1st revision replacements had the same problem, finally they resolved the issue several revisions latter. When I received my spyder in in Feb 2017 I assumed the DPS worked properly, however with in 4 months of driving it, the DPS failed, it was on the second unit so it was no longer covered as a recall repair. Now to be perfectly honest, I could barely tell the difference since the steering assistance became negligible to nonexistent between 15 to 20mph. Can-Am in its infinite wisdom uses a proprietary software only available to authorized dealers in order reset the DPS or for that matter anything else that is connected to the Bosh computer module. At 4900 miles the master brake cylinder began failing, should have been recalled since the dealer told me they had to replace a lot of them with low mileage. The dealer also stated that after the new master cylinder is replaced the brakes have to be bled while connected to the proprietary Budds software; 3hr process or $300. I asked them to shut off the nuisance "check DPS" that interrupts my digital tach, but it cannot be shut off, instead the $1200 DPS plus another $400 labor to re-calibrate with proprietary Budds software. At that point I decided to just live with the nuisance "check DPS", after all by now I have been driving the Spyder for more than a year without dynamic power steering. As for the handling I have no complaints with steering feedback, in dry conditions I normally begin to accelerate coming out of most turns. I never had a full size motorcycle, I had a Kymco 200cc scooter for 5yrs prior to getting the spyder, I got use to leaning in the opposite direction based on the g-forces you receive going into a turn. The Spyder is really a lot of fun, the Stability, Traction control and ABS help protect you from yourself if you happen to over do it in a turn or on wet pavement, other than that I like driving my home made T-Rex RT with its roll cage and 4 point seat belts when it comes to other careless drivers. I think Can-Am realized it was a bit overkill to put power steering in these small RTs, I suspect the Ryker will handle fine once the driver gets passed the learning curve and gets use to any short falls within it!  |
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Post by fatherchuck53 on Dec 28, 2018 8:52:52 GMT -5
I would suggest a quick check of the toe-in. It could possibly be off slightly. During shipping they do get bumped around a lot.
Even if correct you might apply an additional 1/8 toe-in. It has been found to tame down that darting feeling. Effects on the rest of steering, handling, and tire wear are negligible.
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Post by Admin on Dec 28, 2018 9:11:14 GMT -5
Testing the steering on a kinda rough paved road with some turns in it, i noticed the darting was more caused on the bumpy sections of the road. The funny thing was with only one hand on the bars the darting was much less. So i really think its is a real tight steering system and driver input causing the darting. Perhaps when the parts wear in after a while, plus if i get used to the way it drives, the darting will go away.
Please don't call me a expert because i am not. I just think people would like to hear owners observations after driving the beast's. The only knowledge about caster, camber bump steer and all the other details you need to know to build a Trike i have learned from the good members on this forum who do share their knowledge. I'm still going to make mistakes and may have to do my usual 2nd, 3rd, or more rebuilds of part's to get it right. That's the real fun of doing this for me. I really don't consider myself important at all. I really don't have to know anything but just need to keep this forum working well. The joke i have on this forum is my little quote at the bottom saying i am the village idiot. That is because i must be to spend so much time here for absolutely no pay at all. I do not think the same about the other members who help keep this place open to all who want to know about RT's. I truly think this is the BEST RT forum on the net.
srx660
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Post by davej98002 on Dec 28, 2018 12:01:36 GMT -5
Well srx660, until you are unseated you ARE the resident "Guru of Ryker" Don't sell yourself short James. Every members input is valued. There is a saying "No one is considered 'Worthless'. You can always use them as a BAD EXAMPLE!" |
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