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Post by liteway on Mar 16, 2019 8:56:58 GMT -5
We had some discussion about turning circles over on the Captain's build thread. Its 40 outside but curiosity about what mine was drove me over to a nearby new subdivision with cul-de-sacs that do not have houses on them yet. I've used it before for ah....chassis tuning, as usually there is no traffic or people around to be offended by my tomfoolery. Pics deleted .
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Post by liteway on Mar 16, 2019 8:58:07 GMT -5
Looks like you got some good marks on the pavement to make life easier when measuring, is your measurement chassis center to chassis center?
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Post by liteway on Mar 16, 2019 8:58:40 GMT -5
Both look good. the only problems with an enclosed "Cabin" cockpit is sun heat ventilation and rain on the windshield. Then the safity police will say "What happens if you roll over on the roof?" but even on an open cockpit you would have a very hard time getting out if upside down.
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Post by liteway on Mar 16, 2019 8:59:42 GMT -5
Both look good. the only problems with an enclosed "Cabin" cockpit is sun heat ventilation and rain on the windshield. Then the safity police will say "What happens if you roll over on the roof?" but even on an open cockpit you would have a very hard time getting out if upside down. No argument. It would be an oven in the summer. I would put in fan assisted ventilation along with a small slider along the side of the windshield. Just remove the entire canopy for hottest months, when I only venture out in the evening anyway. Rain would have to delt with the same way touring bike riders do it. Lots of RainX. The difference is I would not also have to deal with a wet fogged visor or pull over to put on rain gear. I think I could also provide for demisting with the heater. With said heater, should be great 6 mos. of the year. Don't think of it as a step down from the comfort of a modern car. It's a big step up over a bike's comfort and safety, while providing a comparable(IMO superior) fun factor. As for the safety police, I got no answer for them. Hey, if it was good enough for Gurney and Foyt at Le mans, its good enough for me. No way for them to budge those gull winged doors if the roof was against the ground. Correction 2/28 Technically, the GT 40s did not have gull wing doors, as they hinged conventionally from the front, not from the roof. However, As with the gull winged Mercedes, the door was part of the roof making for a difficult exit in either if the car landed upside down.
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Post by liteway on Mar 16, 2019 9:00:34 GMT -5
Never mind the current chassis. It's refined out to a logical stopping point. Does not make sense to dismember something that works so well. Think I'll keep the trike intact, sell it cheap and start with a clean sheet. Aluminum Monocoque tub with a minimal tube sub-frame to support the engine installed as a stressed member. Braced aluminum swing arm with front pivot concentric with counter sprocket. Starting to see a lot of Can Am spider front end parts on eBay. I'll go with that front end attached directly to the tub. Once again modified with side stick steering and inboard coil overs. Engine of choice at this time would be from a Fz09 Yamaha donor also giving up its rear wheel which is wide enough for a 205/17 The Yamaha only has 115hp from 850cc but it's modern 3 cylinder design leaves it lighter than any of the current liter bike engines and even lighter than the 600 4 I'm using now. Great low end torque , but still with a good top end pull to above 10 grand. I'm betting I can keep the weight of the whole shabang no heavier than what I have now. About 550.
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Post by liteway on Mar 16, 2019 9:01:42 GMT -5
I am at the same point. You get to a point where you may second guess what you did and try a few things but come back to where you were. I cannot do anymore to my Eco Exo R at this time and not worth making any more changes. You have a great looking trike and time will tell what you finally decided to what you want to do. I am sure yours will be done before the first Elio rolls of the assembly line. Mine weighs 572 LBS with full fuel and only have 32HP but with the CVT it is quick enough for me. Now decision time on what way to go. Good luck. Edward
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Post by liteway on Mar 16, 2019 9:02:48 GMT -5
Thanks Edward Whats next. With my first autocross done, (see story telling) I'm off my malaise and into improvement for this use. I did not do particularly well, but well enough to be convinced that a tadpole trike configuration can be competitively auto crossed with sufficient development.(not against the fastest road or track specific cars). The most obviously needed and easily implemented improvement in my case is better roll control. Beyond just making the trike more responsive in transitional and steady state cornering, it will result in maintaining a better rear contact patch allowing tidier corner exit, and less likely lifting of the inside wheel. Given that and a slightly wider rear tire, I believe I could get another 30 or 40 hp down. I can get a lot of that if I can ever get my current engine delivering its full potential. After that, something needs to done about the brakes, which just won't cut it on the wide open courses that seem to be favored around here. Aside from the these mechanical improvements, the nut behind the wheel needs to be tightened, lots of time lost there, but mostly a matter of practice. Had a heck of a good time, even finishing much closer to the end of pack than the front, but I'm not interested in staying back there and if can't move up a bunch, I'll find something else to do. The fastest time of the day was set by a highly modified EVO. I spoke with Its affable driver, Andy. Turns out he is an official with another local club that holds events at the same venue. He said his club is a lot less rule oriented than PCA and I would be welcome anytime they run, though that is somewhat irregular. He said he thought the next one would be run in August, but was not sure. He will E-mail me. Later: County officials have ruled the track off limits for private club events. I'm back to nowhere to race.
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Post by liteway on Mar 16, 2019 9:04:18 GMT -5
Alas, Its not real. Was rotating the tires on my Focus and wondered what the affect would be if I stood the wheels up alongside the trike. But as you can see from this angle the wheels are not attached. The big improvement in the trike's stance has me researching an alternative front end again. I would not go with meatballs this big though.(215/55/16, 7in wheel width). I'm thinking more like Can AM Spyder size rubber.(165/65/14 5" rim width, I believe). These would match up better to the 175/55/17 5" rear and I would still have more contact rubber to the road, pound for pound than a Corvette. That size would allow better looks and bigger brakes without the burden of too much extra mass. Might improve stability as well. Assuming this chassis could be modified to accept the changes, it would take months of work and be expensive, so probably won't happen. Walked out to the garage this morning and noticed my front discs were a lovely shade of anodized blue. I had already began gathering Can AM parts for a front end swap. Looks like that was a good decision. More brakes mean I can use more power. Will be shopping for a totaled FZ/9 too.
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Post by liteway on Mar 16, 2019 9:05:23 GMT -5
You have been bitten hard.
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Post by liteway on Mar 16, 2019 9:06:07 GMT -5
Walked out to the garage this morning and noticed my front discs were a lovely shade of anodized blue. I had already began gathering Can AM parts for a front end swap. Looks like that was a good decision. More brakes mean I can use more power. Will be shopping for a totaled fz 09 too. Good plan.
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Post by liteway on Mar 16, 2019 9:06:41 GMT -5
Already have most of the parts needed for the front end conversion. It was a lot easier in time and money than I would have thought. All courtesy of Ebay and tire rack. Upper A-arms with ball joints and bushings 140 Lower Arms with the same 120 Uprights and hubs with all bearings and seals installed ,even came with lugs 192 Pr of 4 piston calipers complete with lightly worn pads 90 Pr of 9 1/4" rotors, very little wear 90 Pr of BRP factory wheels, new in the box 115 Pr of Kumo 165/55/14s new from tire rack 104 Shipping est. 110 Total 961 Everything has been bolted together to insure compatibility. All parts were specified for a 2009 Can Am Spyder RT. I will need some additional bolts and washers and couple of the ball joints are not tight, but shouldn't be out more than another 100 bucks or so. Arms will need to be cut shorter for my application, but that will be far easier than scratch building them. Down side. Won't know how/if the geometry can be worked out till I get a proper table and a mock up done. It's going to be a lot heavier than the ATV front end. Hoping ride and handling will not be too negatively affected.May have to change my handle again, not-so-liteway.
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Post by liteway on Mar 16, 2019 9:07:25 GMT -5
I could not wait the 4-6 months it will take to graft on the new front to see what it will look like so after I got tires mounted on the wheels this morning, I set up another dummy photo.
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Post by liteway on Mar 16, 2019 9:07:57 GMT -5
You're such a tease.
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Post by liteway on Mar 16, 2019 9:08:27 GMT -5
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Post by liteway on Mar 16, 2019 9:08:58 GMT -5
Changed residences this month. The last couple of months have been about house hunting and moving so behind on my intended completion time. It's a forty minute drive to the old house where I still have my shop intact, so I'm commuting, tying to get this done before attempting to move the shop works. If I can get another couple of full days in, should be done before New Year. Caster, camber, ride height,and effective spring rate are adjustable. After cutting the lower arms by 6.5"s and the upper by 7, track still increases by 3" (57.5) both over what it was and the stock Spyder. The Spyder places the inner pivots of the lower arms very close to accommodate its ATV type steering. No room for a foot box and none needed. Not the best design, probably leaves some bump steer as the arms and tie rods still wind up different lengths, though not by much. Cheap to produce though, no doubt. I also cut away the mounting bungs for the lower shock mounts, inverted them and swapped sides so I could obtain the right angle on the suspension push rods without changing the angles of the bell cranks which would have been much more troublesome. The bell cranks still had to be modified, if less drastically, as the new geometry resulted in too little spring firmness so they had to be taken apart and the holes for mounting the upper end of the suspension push rods redrilled closer to the bell crank central pivot to firm things up. The plates are starting to look like Swiss cheese. Of course all the mounting flanges for the arms inner pivots had to be cut away, re-positioned and re-welded. After this was done, I later discovered they were too far rearward to integrate the steering and suspension bits to work properly. Had to cut those all away and do it again, the most time wasting disheartening part of the change so far. The steering arms, which were cast as part of the uprights,also had to be cut away, as their position would not work for steering that passes under my upper ankles. They were replaced using a fabricated steel/ aluminum part attached to the factory tapped fender mount bungs. Other mods included re routing the brake lines , redesigning the central steering shaft, and making longer suspension push rods and tie rods and changes to body panels. Piece of cake.
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Post by liteway on Mar 16, 2019 9:09:29 GMT -5
I have read your posts from the beginning under build projects. Looks like lots of trial & error modifications simular to what I've experienced. The trike is very sharp looking in both versions. I was curious to see the linkage kinematics of your steering, its hard to see from the jpeg's. The 3 Scoote Coupes I worked on had the first generation of their steering linkage. Around 2008 they offered a 150cc version went to rack & pinion steering and improved suspension that made a huge difference.The is no steering wheel instead they use motorcycle handlebars, so steering is extremely sensitive like a go kart. I hope the Can-Am front end is not too problematic, good luck!
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Post by liteway on Mar 16, 2019 9:10:09 GMT -5
This is the most inclusive view I can give you.
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Post by liteway on Mar 16, 2019 9:10:35 GMT -5
Very unique design it appears the two steering handles move opposite directions in a fairly linear fashion with proportion to the wheel track. I'm sure it would take some getting used to when trying it for the first time, I could see why googd center return tracking is so important.
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Post by liteway on Mar 16, 2019 9:11:18 GMT -5
Yeah, whether by stick or wheel, you cannot have good steering without a slack free mechanism tied to a front end with proper geometry. It didn't take much acclimation for me, felt natural from the start. Extreme steering angles for good turn radius. Turns sharper than with the tens. Scrub free even at these angles, 37degees inside, 30 outside (with 0 toe)
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Post by liteway on Mar 16, 2019 9:12:15 GMT -5
Finally got in a few test miles today, 35 degree weather be d--ned. No bad for a first shakedown, rides about like it did , finally corners as flat as I like and brakes are great. Nose pitch and therefore stability under braking is very good. Only disappointment was in the old bugaboo, straight line stability. Got a little freaky on a road it would take just fine before. Not too worried though, fenders are not on yet, more caster can be adjusted in and bump steer has only been eyeball adjusted. I had thought keeping it flat in the corners would help with rear wheel traction on corner exit. Could not tell it, felt greasy back there, maybe brake fluid or antifreeze on the rubber from the brake bleed and cooling system recharge, I hope. WE all love more power, But this trike would benefit more with better traction (bigger rubber out back). Its always something. Adding 40 lbs on the front and none on the rear probably did hurt traction. Weight distribution goes from 52.5/47.5 to 55/45. So 40 lbs heavier and less traction, I've done myself no favors for acceleration. No choice though, had to have decent brakes. As an aside, I have become a true believer in Lithium batteries. Trike had not been started in several months, no trickle charger help, and still had enough power in the 35 degree weather to allow a lot of grinding on the starter till the old cold blooded (carburetor-ed) beast finally fired.
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Post by liteway on Mar 16, 2019 9:13:40 GMT -5
I figured the car tire I got for the rear should have been good for 20k plus. Nope. Has 5k on it and will probably be down to the wear bars in another 2k. The single autocross event resulted in visible wear. Reverse trikes are simply hell on rear tires. I have to come up with an offset counter sprocket to fit a 195. If anyone knows where one can be obtained or fabricated, let me know. Anything bigger would require a redesign of the whole back end for a wider wheel. If I were to go that route, I would wait till I'm ready for an engine swap and go to to a 245/40 or bigger. Not going to happen soon, if ever.
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Post by liteway on Mar 16, 2019 9:14:48 GMT -5
Reverse trikes are simply hell on rear tires. .......when they are rear wheel drive.........
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Post by liteway on Mar 16, 2019 9:15:18 GMT -5
fair qualification. Pretty much concludes this phase, Just going to screw the floor pan and body panels back on and get it over to the new house. Won't have any time to mess with it for months, as I have to prepare my old house for sale and prepare the new one to better suit our needs. Later. 12/31 Drove the trike 40 miles to my new home this afternoon. Definitely some bump steer present as I can feel the sticks wiggle in my hands over bumps, something that could not be felt before. A bit more kickback too. Nothing that cannot be tuned out. There is no filter between the road and your hands, the sticks tell you exactly what is happening at the contact patches. Ride is a little more bouncy. Maybe now, with greater unsprung weight, less psi is called for. Or maybe the shocks are not up to controlling the additional mass. Some loss of traction is noticeable. Major changes always seem to need refinement before full advantage can be realized. It was fun anyway, great to get it back out on the highway after 6mos.
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Post by liteway on Mar 16, 2019 9:16:29 GMT -5
I purchased a Yokohama S.Drive 195/40-17 from Tire rack for my trike. This tire was the widest tire I could fit in stock swing arm and on stock 17" Suzuki rim. I found the traction to be fantastic. This is the forth brand of tire that I have tried on two different trikes and found it to be the best gripping tire so far. The downside is the tire only lasted about 9,000 miles. I fault my driving style for the short life, with 1300cc of Hayabusa power and 1,100 lbs curb weight I have not been kind to that tire. The two S.Drive tires on the front will last forever. Next spring when I return to WI I will need to replace the tire, sprockets and chain. The sprockets and chain have 20k on them.
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Post by liteway on Mar 16, 2019 9:17:33 GMT -5
Thanks for the tip Jim. 9000 miles is better than I will get with the current Bridgestone and it is anything but sticky.
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Post by liteway on Mar 16, 2019 9:17:59 GMT -5
This is why I have thoughts of doing a front wheel drive reverse trike. With most of the weight over the two front tires grip will be much better. Just getting Subaru rear diff mounted upside down lubed good is the biggest challenge.
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Post by liteway on Mar 16, 2019 9:18:53 GMT -5
I keep getting 3 wheel drive Reverse Trike voices in my head, That would be so cool if it could be made to work in a light weight simple set up!!!
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Post by liteway on Mar 16, 2019 9:19:27 GMT -5
I keep getting 3 wheel drive Reverse Trike voices in my head, That would be so cool if it could be made to work in a light weight simple set up!!! That would certainly solve the traction problem, but I was attracted to 3 wheelers in first place because of their light weight and simplicity, traits negated by all wheel drive. Front drive handling is not my thing and in weight and complexity it is somewhere between the other 2. If I can get a tire out back that bites, I'll be a happy camper. If a soft compound 195 doesn't do it for me, I'll look at converting to a CanAm Spyder 15x7" rim and a 235. Either way is much simpler and lighter than 2 or 3 wheel drive. And if that don't work (I have little doubt it will,at least at moderate power levels) might as well look into a lightweight Lotus 7 type 4 wheeler. Just my thoughts guys, others may differ. 2rike: I'm curious about your weight distribution, rear tire/rim, and traction satisfaction.
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Post by liteway on Mar 16, 2019 9:20:34 GMT -5
The 2rike has a balance point when picked up off the floor with a chain hoist which is 50mm in front of the roll bar so in effect it is where your shoulder are. The over all on the road weight is 360KGs and that is split 114Kgs on the front corners and 132 Kgs on the rear tyre Tyre wise I use the same tyre front and back which are Toyo 205/40 ZR 17 Proxes Tr1-R 84W Front 17 PSI/ Rear 24 PSI Pressure I have covered about 2000 miles so far since June when I got it on the road and there is no appreciable ware on the tyres even the rear I suppose my driving style is quite light on the tyres I like to feel the grip and apply the throttle progressively that way it sets off like a rocket because if you just floor it, it will sit there and spin!!! Cornering again you can feel the grip and you can just turn it in and it flows round the corner and then it has a good self centering feel. on the straights it go in a straight line on its own Its all light and predictable I am really happy with how its turned out. 2rike
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Post by liteway on Mar 16, 2019 9:21:24 GMT -5
The biggest issue of running a narrow and short tire is they wear quickly. You need to figure out how to FIRST get the tallest tire you can and SECONDLY widest. A custom swing arm may be needed. I have always fitted the tallest tire and then gear down to get the overall effected gear ratio right. On my Suzuki 650 scooter the factory Bridgestone was a 160/60 HR 14 (21.55 Inch tall) in the rear. I ground down the casting flash from the foundry moulds of the swingarm so I could fit a 185/60 HR 14 (22.75 inch tall) Car tire, so I got both tall and wide. I can not spin this 185 tire even in the rain. And I have about 20,000 miles on it and it is about 60% tread life left, maybe another 15,000 before it becomes worthless in the rain. But the 165 motorcycle tire I was spinning all the time and got 5,000 miles on each one.
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