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Post by chaceoliva on Apr 24, 2019 22:24:12 GMT -5
Hello, new to forum. I traded my zx6r for a home made street legal reverse trike. It's now up and running, I drive it often, but it needs some help. It's a 1966 vw front end, a 1979 Honda steering set up and a 1983 Suzuki gs1100e power plant, engine and rear. It's fun to drive, gets attention and so forth. I fixed most of the issues it had, but my main issue is that of its stability I believe . Anything over 50 mph and its scarey. I can control it for the most part, but having to turn the wheel in half inch increments, left right, left right, to keep it straight on the road is a workout. It's a blast up until then, like a gokart on crack. Its 12ft 4 inches long, whell base at front is 5 ft 3 inches, center body is about 30 inches at cab,and narrows down slightly down towards the rear. In 1983 the bike came with a 130 rear tire, which might be a factor, not enough rubber on the ground. I have added weights over rear, up to 135 lbs. In steps or phases trying to see if it would help. I felt the weight, grip...but caused a heavy roll on the body while turning. I removed the weights all together, and adjusted the dual rear stock shocks to the stiffest setting, which actually helped. But not much as I'd like. I heard of being able to replace the stock 83 swingarm with one from a Suzuki bandit 1200, and with some work it will bolt in place, letting me get a 180 tire at the rear..at most. But I dont know if I'm going about it the wrong way or not...thanks
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Post by davej98002 on Apr 24, 2019 23:06:10 GMT -5
OK, that VW front beam rotates its control arms in a different sweep than a Honda Car so you may be having induced Ackerman angle issues. The VW steering box is mounted up front on the axle and it has the pitman arm that puts a sharp angle on the tie-rods out to the hubs. This could be one of the issues. The Honda Car rack pushes 90 degrees to the hub and in a standard 'A" arm works well.
Caster may also be part of the wander back and forth. On a VW you rotate the top tube forward (- Caster) or the bottom tube forward (+ Caster) with curved shims to correct this Caster. Positive Caster makes the chassis heavy at rest and when you turn the wheel, the arc swing must lift the chassis up, so it always wants to fall back to center at rest. This makes it hard to wander as much. Go too far and the steering gets real heavy. (I may have these backwards, I am sure someone will correct me )
Camber is adjusted with shims on 'King pins' or off centered collars in the 'Ball joints'. And of course the Tow-in is done with the tie-rods.
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Post by chaceoliva on Apr 25, 2019 7:31:47 GMT -5
Thanks for replying, the steering seems ok, unless it's just me and my lack of experience with a trike. I've been driving for years, and have a shifter kart, and quater midget champ kart, as well as other things I have personally built. Anyway, it's the rear that's wanting to not stay straight at higher speeds, 50 or over. Anything below the 4ooo rpms in 5th gear, is when it just feels the back end isnt on the road, which I felt was due to the narrow 130 tire. I tried posting pics, but it wont let me due to the pics being a few mb than the max mb of 1. Not sure how to adjust the pics, I tried just taking a screenshot of the picture, thinking it wasnt actually taken from my s9 camera, but its mb was still too high. Idk
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Post by chaceoliva on Apr 25, 2019 12:36:56 GMT -5
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Post by chaceoliva on Apr 25, 2019 12:39:08 GMT -5
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Post by chaceoliva on Apr 25, 2019 12:42:53 GMT -5
I've changed a few things on it, headlights, led blinkers, shifter or lever, and has new rear tire still a 130 due to swing arm and brake caliper bar clearance. I also redid the carbs and valve cover and painted it ceramic yellow. Few other things..
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Post by davej98002 on Apr 25, 2019 13:46:56 GMT -5
You can down load a Freeware Photo editor that works well for forum posting. But we do request that you host most of your build photos to a HOST site like Pintrest, Imgre, Imgsafe or PhotoBucket though I do not recommend PhotoBucket.
The Freeware I use is Faststone Photo Viewer.
Trikes will always have a bit of unstability due to only 1 tire in suspension in the rear. In a 4 wheel car, when the right side front tire is in a bump it tries to transfer rotation to the left rear but the left rear suspension restricts it. But in a Reverse trike, there is nothing to restrict it. But this does not sound like what you are dealing with, 100%.
Liteway may have more ideas on what you are dealing with.
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Post by chaceoliva on Apr 25, 2019 15:44:32 GMT -5
Ok , my apologies for my lack of photo skills lol. I will download something and maybe post more pics that may or may not help..I understand about the transfer of force or impact from road to tires,..my issue is more of even being on a smooth road, driving straight. At upper speeds or trying to get there, there's an issue...narrow tire maybe, lack of weight distribution maybe...maybe its something else entirely, and I am not sure how to explain it. At let's say 50mph,..I'm able to keep her straight...any slight tyrn of the steering wheel, has a huge effect on the back tire, and its feeling like it want to wiggle or sway away, in either direction. I thought maybe it was the front or steering response of sensitivity. But it seems fine at 45 and under...I'm at a loss...lol
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Post by 1983jzr3w on Apr 25, 2019 16:18:49 GMT -5
I have 155SR-15 Firestone passenger car tires on my JZR reverse trike and it handles fine. In fact, you would think you were in a four wheel car if you did not look at the narrow rear end. I noticed a Florida plate on one picture. I am in Jacksonville. What part of the state are you from?
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Post by liteway on Apr 25, 2019 16:53:11 GMT -5
I can think of only 2 things at the back that might be a problem. Misalignment of the wheel or worn swingarm bushing or bearings. Can't be positive but I doubt a narrow tire is to blame. More likely something up front in the steering or suspension. How v dub front ends can keep a vehicle in a straight line is a mystery to me, but that just shows my lack of understanding, as many folks have used them successfully.
The fact that it is not stable even on a smooth surface with no bumps to interact with would point to an alignment problem, front or rear.
First make sure there is nothing loose in any of the suspension or steering pivot points.
Then find a flat smooth surface to park on and make sure all the wheels are running parallel to one another and the chassis, in both loaded and unloaded conditions. This can be done with nothing more elaborate than some string and a tape measure.
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Post by joesarasota on Apr 25, 2019 17:32:46 GMT -5
You can also post pictures on Facebook and link them to this site. I post to either Florida Reverse Trikes or Reverse Trike Owners and Builders, you don't have to modify anything with your pictures. As far as your trike stability with the narrow rear tire, it would be helpful to know what the weight distribution is including you as the driver. You can purchase 3 inexpensive scales to determine this. Will look forward to seeing more pictures, good luck!
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Post by chaceoliva on Apr 25, 2019 19:25:52 GMT -5
I'm in brevard county ,fl. Port st. John (cocoa area). How did you do the set up for a car tire in the rear? I was told,one of the only mods I can do to my set up was to use a Suzuki bandit 1200 swing arm, bolts up in place with a lil work needed to be right. Bushings,spacer,shims or something,dont remember exactly. The front tires are new, and was told they were mounted but not balanced. I'm not sure that's an issue or not with what the rear is doing or the way its acting. Wish I could explain better to what it's doing, dont know the words that describes it..lol. as far as the rear swingarm, idk. After I got it I took it straight to a reputable bike shop in my area, and they didnt say anything was wrong or anything was needed. I've been there a number of times, and trust the owner...nice guy. I took all three of my bikes there, tires,chains, etc. I just took it out for a ride after cleaning the carbs,and valve cover gasket, and some paint lol
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Post by chaceoliva on Apr 25, 2019 19:28:30 GMT -5
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Post by chaceoliva on Apr 25, 2019 19:35:22 GMT -5
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Post by chaceoliva on Apr 25, 2019 19:36:44 GMT -5
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Post by chaceoliva on Apr 25, 2019 19:37:32 GMT -5
Are my pictures loading as requested,? I'm using liveshare app.
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Post by davej98002 on Apr 25, 2019 23:33:45 GMT -5
The Proboards give us a max of 200 Megs of storage for all members pictures. Right now we are only at 13 Megs of our max, but 7.6 Megs are just your pictures above. So that is why we ask for you to host them off site and not use the 'Add Attachment' button at the top right.
Please do not get mad at me for pointing this out. On our old forum we had the same 200 megs but 1 members build used up 96 Megs in 100 pictures. It took me 4 days of copying them over to ImgSafe and reposting them to free up room for other members. One of your pictures is 946.56 Kb or 0.95 Megs rounded up, almost 1 whole meg. So you can see it would not take much to hit our 200 Meg limit.
I can walk you through it if you want. But you must make an account with a Host site to store them on. Not all are free. But many do allow free membership but limit your amount. I use ImgSafe.Org for most pictures.
Here is an ImgSafe picture of a screen shot of your current pictures. But I will fix them later. The red boxed ones are my pictures above.
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Post by chaceoliva on Apr 26, 2019 7:07:32 GMT -5
Ok, again..my apologies. I'm guessing the live share app is not what I needed. It compressed the pictures, but I thought it would link them. I am not familiar with the online hosting. I downloaded Flickr and another app, dont remember the name. When I searched in Google play, I searched picture hosting, and I downloaded the ones with the most users. I am in no way mad, I'm attempting to comply lol. I'll search further later when I get home from work. I'm not a big social media guy,.so no fb or Instagram. I do have a few cloud storage apps, would those be suitable? Now....about my trike. Lol
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Post by davej98002 on Apr 26, 2019 12:46:41 GMT -5
Once we get this picture thing fixed for you, I will clean up all this off of your build.
Back to the bike issue. I still am thinking that you have a caster issue. This is a very common issue with VW Bug beam front ends. But if your Tie rod ends are worn, when the forward speed pushes the slight Tow-in condition to neutral or tow-out the front end will get wishy-washy. It may feel like the rear is washing out but I'd bet it is not. On a 2500 mile trip on my Burgman Scooter I was in Wyoming and did not know I had a front wheel bearing starting to fail. It was causing a lot of drag. I did not notice it till I was pushing it a bit hard in a heavy rain and the back tire was pushing out sideways. I limped it to a small 'Harley' type shop and the old codger came out and said my front bearings were xxxx'ed. He just happened to have a set of the correct sizes and 45 minuets and $50 later I was back to doing 75 MPH with no problems. Just saying....
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Post by chaceoliva on Apr 26, 2019 14:11:19 GMT -5
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Post by chaceoliva on Apr 26, 2019 14:55:28 GMT -5
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Post by chaceoliva on Apr 26, 2019 14:56:53 GMT -5
The second url should work to veiw my pictures
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Post by 1983jzr3w on Apr 26, 2019 17:26:20 GMT -5
chaceoliva Thanks for the location. We are less than 200 miles apart. I use the swing arm from a Honda CX650 which was the donor cycle for my JZR. My tires appear to be very similar in size to your rear tire. The 155sr-15 tire will fit in the stock Honda swing arm with no issues. Since my trike is front engine with a drive shaft the weight is fairly balanced over the length of the trike. I see your engine is just in front of the rear wheel so the front to rear weight bias may be much heavier on the rear. This is just a guess as I am not an engineer or much of a mechanic. I just followed the directions supplied from John Ziemba Restorations the company that builds the JZR kit in England.
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Post by Admin on Apr 26, 2019 19:33:02 GMT -5
I just now took the first picture of your trike, opened it in my corel photo paint 8, reduced the dpi to 72, and the size down to 1028x500 pixels. on my computer this reduced the MB size from 12.2MB down to 407 KB. I could have reduced the picture down more but clarity may be lost somewhat with much smaller pictures. I then loaded the picture to my ImageShack site. from ImageShack i am posting it here. Now on this forum the reduced size of the picture comes out to 155.7 KB. That is 6.4 pictures per MB. I use Corel PhotoPaint 8 simply because i have been using Corel software for 20 some years. Corel won me over from using Adobe Photoshop(too complicated)and before Corel i was using Jasc Paint Shop Pro. I liked Corel PhotoPaint better as it had more features than paint shop pro. They both are very similar to use and easier to learn than Adobe. I use ImageShack because i am one of the admin's here and have 1000's of RT pictures(10,850 pictures to be exact). Yes, i pay for my Imageshack and it costs me $40 per year to use it. I do not have 10,000 pictures in Imageshack. But i do have about 500 pictures there. I change some of them and delete others, add new folders(11 folders so far)So i can keep track of the ones i put on this forum. I have not had any problems with ImageShack. It is also quite easy to post pictures from ImageShack to this forum with copy and paste. Admin
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Post by chaceoliva on Apr 26, 2019 19:45:34 GMT -5
I'm not familiar with the jzr kit. I'll have to look it up and check it out. As far as my weight, it the trikes weight, I can push it easily, I'm uncertain of its exact weight. If you take a 1983 Suzuki gs1100e and cut it in half right in front of the engine, take then engine half and make a trike out of it, that's what I have. It's the bike, frame,motor to the rear. Then its frame was welded to a homemade frame. I'm not sure what the back half of the bike weighs, figure if the bike weighed 420 lbs, I'm guessing that without front part of bikes frame, forks,handle bars etc...I'm guessing the back weighs about 325lbs...the front vw half of my trike, axle,tires,etc...more than likely weighs more than the back. The trike wont make a 200 mile trip,..even in the slow lane lol. My daily is a 98 BMW 740il...it was a nightmare when I got it, but it's my daily ..lol
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Post by chaceoliva on Apr 26, 2019 19:48:45 GMT -5
And to the admin, thanks for the picture adjustments. I'm sorry, I do not understand much about the technology of camera/pictures. I am trying tho...I posted/hosted my pics of the trike on flikr,..and posted the url link. Did it not work? Or is it still the wrong way to post pics on this forum? Thanks
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Post by Admin on Apr 26, 2019 20:16:32 GMT -5
yes, your flickr pictures are doing well and the picture size is down to 61 KB. I did not like flickr because it is not very easy to use and you really can't have multiple folders to organize your pictures in group's. That is the problem i have with most free picture hosting websites. You really can't beat this software for adjusting your pictures in every way you can think of. I can and will post tutorials on how to use Corel PSP if you need help figuring it out. This is on Ebay right now. Beware of the sellers that have pre-activated software. They are using commercial software which uses one set of registration code for many computers. Once you buy a preactivated version Corel will not let you update the software to newer versions. New Retail versions can be automatically updated to new software. Admin
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Post by chaceoliva on Apr 26, 2019 20:26:34 GMT -5
Nice, I finally got it a lil better then,..see I can do something right lol. Davej will be pleased, or atleast not so frustrated with my use of picture space.
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Post by roger on Apr 29, 2019 19:10:02 GMT -5
You seem to have a very narrow track for such a long trike. Has the VW axle been narrowed at all? There doesn’t seem to be enough room to turn the wheel to steer without scrubbing the tires on the chassis. My TR1ke is 8’-6” front axle center to rear axle center and has a 68” track. Since it is a home built project, you’re sort of at the mercy of what it is. You may want to fab up your own front suspension to widen the track. You would need to add a few degrees of caster and align it with a very slight of “toe in” setting. You may be experiencing something other than Ackerman misalignment. Don’t get me wrong, it is important to have coordinated steering angles and Ackerman steering is most important when steering into and out of tight corners.
What you might be feeling is weight shift steering. As you move your legs or your upper torso to one side then the other the center of gravity is shifted in the direction of your movement. When you have a narrow track on your trike, the weight shift is placed closer to your wheels than if you had a wider track. This could be causing your continually over steer the trike. As a temporary measure run the coil over springs to full tension to make the suspension more ridged, then see how it reacts.
I am not saying it will work but rather than rework your front end it’s worth a try. My own experience with what you are going through right now happened after I installed progressive coil overs on my Eco-Exo. It was ALL OVER THE ROAD. I removed them and installed stiffer linear shocks and it’s been good ever since.
Hope this helps
Roger
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Post by CaptainAmerica on May 4, 2019 7:42:35 GMT -5
I am curious about your total vehicle weight and your balance. Can you stick a bathroom scale under each wheel and give us an idea of what your overall weight and front to back balance is. The reason I say this is that trikes of this design, like my own, actually have trouble getting weight over the rear end, which we are asking to do a lot of work in both putting power down and guiding the rear end. Is the 148" length the wheelbase of just the end to end length? Because that's a massive wheel base. While mine is packaged quite tight, the wheel base is in the 100" range with a similar track. Looks like you already tried extra weight as I got to reading more, so looks like that's out, although if it helps I would still try to use it, just mount it low to the ground, maybe under the swing arm pivot point. I would also look at all your steering connections and make sure you don't have sloppy joints giving your wheels the freedom to bounce all over the place, this can happen with old stuff. Also possibly look at a steering damper to try and stop the wheels from taking control of the steering when you hit bumps. I would get your vehicle up in the air and just push and pull on the wheels and see what moves to check your bushings, having someone holding the steering wheel at the same time will help with this.
I would agree with the idea that your front track might not be wide enough for the length, however in a straight line this shouldn't matter much. You might also consider swapping the rear wheel to a car tire to widen the contact patch, which it seems you're already considering. All this said the weight thing mixed with loose or incorrectly working steering could create issues at speed, as you increase speed you are using more and more of the your rear contact patch to put power down and less grip is available for side to side stability.
Andrew
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