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Post by Self Absorbed Turnip on Sept 23, 2021 11:45:05 GMT -5
I'm slowly learning things and forming a plan. I read (I think it was in these forums) that trikes often have a hard time getting power to the ground. I assume the author meant the one wheel in back is easily over powered and looses traction? Where cars (with LSD) have an easier time with power delivery?
Assuming I understood what I read, would the better solution be a wider rear wheel/tire or adjusting weight balance?
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Post by davej98002 on Sept 23, 2021 14:30:26 GMT -5
Weight ratio on a Reverse trike is different than a car. You need more weight up front of a trike. Member Mntech has the best lay out with his Front Wheel Drive trike.
Torque to the 1 wheel overcomes traction. Adding a wider wheel does help some.
Its like an old pickup truck without Positraction. With no weight in the cargo bed you will spin the right rear tire. Add 1,000 pounds to the rear and no spin. But now the truck is heavy and slow plus it loses front steering response.
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Post by liteway on Sept 23, 2021 17:37:35 GMT -5
I would be good to hear from Mntech. It's been a long time. I would like to know where that project stands and what the trike looks like these years later. I have to disagree about Rear engine front drive being ideal for a reverse trike though. Front drive begins with one strike against in high powered cars in general. During hard acceleration, weight transfers to the rear unloading the fronts and robbing traction. Works good for snow and ice though as you are not likely to accelerate sharply anyway. Now put the engine in the rear and the front wheels are already unloaded before you accelerate. It only worsens as g forces pitch weight aft. With rear drive the faster you accelerate, the more the rear tires are loaded and the better their bite. The problem with a rear drive reverse trike is limited contact patch from a single tire, and at least the front driver has some advantage there but not so much as to overcome the poor static weight distribution with a rear mounted engine. I would expect a front drive trike with engine forward over the drive wheels probably offers the best hope of decent traction and stability in a reverse trike but increases overall weight and build complexity. Gonna understeer like a bugger too. JMO.
I think the best idea is rear drive with moderate power and as big a rear tire as you can possibly fit. Maybe a little more weight aft than would be ideal for stability too. Everything is a compromise and a reverse trike requires more than most.
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Post by davej98002 on Sept 24, 2021 0:37:05 GMT -5
Go to Facebook's "Reverse Trike Owners and Builders" and search for Peter de Haan.
Gorgous!!! Stunning!!!
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Post by Self Absorbed Turnip on Sept 24, 2021 7:57:54 GMT -5
I think the best idea is rear drive with moderate power and as big a rear tire as you can possibly fit. Maybe a little more weight aft than would be ideal for stability too. Everything is a compromise and a reverse trike requires more than most.
I dunno what this 'moderate power' thing is you mentioned. I'll have to google it.
So, if I've read this correctly, Dave is suggesting some forward weight balance and Liteway is suggesting a little rearward?
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Post by Self Absorbed Turnip on Sept 24, 2021 8:04:20 GMT -5
Go to Facebook's "Reverse Trike Owners and Builders" and search for Peter de Haan.
Gorgous!!! Stunning!!!
I sure appreciate the design and effort put into that but I feel a reverse trike is most gooderest as a small single seater. That's my philosophy.
The trikes like Andrew's Spartan and the Liteway are (and I use this word without hyperbole) inspirational to me.
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Post by davej98002 on Sept 24, 2021 15:21:52 GMT -5
For traction more weight to the rear is best due to weight transfer. But a light weight trike will NOT weight transfer as much as a full body car. For cornering stability, more weight over the front has seemed to be best.
Moderate power is like 50 to 120 HP in a light weight trike. Some people will state that a R1 or Hyabusa with a turbo is best. A reverse trike with a LS1 up front will have ZERO traction even with a 325/45 20 rear CAR tire in the rear.
The R.Q. Riley's Trimagnum is a good cornering and traction trike. The front axle is moved back under your knees so all the front fiberglass body weight is over the two front wheels as is a lot of your body weight. Then with the bikes full frame without the forks and front wheel is over the back with all the fiberglass body weight too. The kit as designed was Moderate powered with a 2 cylinder Kawasaki 800cc at around 60 Horsepower. Even with a Goldwing 1800 6 cylinder, they are balanced weight and have good traction with 125 Horsepower.
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Post by davej98002 on Sept 24, 2021 15:42:45 GMT -5
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Post by Self Absorbed Turnip on Oct 1, 2021 16:59:17 GMT -5
Thanks for that Dave. I've seen a pic or two of this trike but no other info. Now I know, ya know?
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Post by davej98002 on Oct 1, 2021 22:55:00 GMT -5
I'd need an electric lift seat just to get out of that TWS trike.
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Post by liteway on Oct 3, 2021 18:08:31 GMT -5
I think the best idea is rear drive with moderate power and as big a rear tire as you can possibly fit. Maybe a little more weight aft than would be ideal for stability too. Everything is a compromise and a reverse trike requires more than most. I dunno what this 'moderate power' thing is you mentioned. I'll have to google it. So, if I've read this correctly, Dave is suggesting some forward weight balance and Liteway is suggesting a little rearward?
NO, I meant a little more rearward than would be ideal for stability. Ideal for stability on a reverse trike is 66 percent front, 33% rear, but that in combination with rear drive, is ruinous for traction, so that is why I say a compromise is in order. If you have low or moderate power and traction is not a big problem, keep the weight forward for stability. Just how much weight you can get away with moving aft for more traction depends on the width of your track and C.G. height among other things. At some point in shifting weight aft, and depending on those other factors there will come a tendency to lift the inside front tire in a corner or even tip over. There is no ideal set weight distribution that can maximize all performance requirements at once.
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Post by Self Absorbed Turnip on Oct 4, 2021 15:00:21 GMT -5
NO, I meant a little more rearward than would be ideal for stability. Ideal for stability on a reverse trike is 66 percent front, 33% rear, but that in combination with rear drive, is ruinous for traction, so that is why I say a compromise is in order. If you have low or moderate power and traction is not a big problem, keep the weight forward for stability. Just how much weight you can get away with moving aft for more traction depends on the width of your track and C.G. height among other things. At some point in shifting weight aft, and depending on those other factors there will come a tendency to lift the inside front tire in a corner or even tip over. There is no ideal set weight distribution that can maximize all performance requirements at once. That makes a lot of sense and is very informative. Thanks!
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Post by CaptainAmerica on Oct 4, 2021 16:21:23 GMT -5
I run 60/40 on the spartan with a low CG and 1000lb with driver. I would say that in most cases I wish the back was heavier for more traction, but there is only so much I can do without just casting a lead weight and bolting it over the rear wheel moving the battery to back will be helpful. Its somewhat hard to get weight out of the front though, there is just so much stuff up there.
Andrew
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Post by liteway on Oct 5, 2021 7:43:45 GMT -5
I run 60/40 on the spartan with a low CG and 1000lb with driver. I would say that in most cases I wish the back was heavier for more traction, but there is only so much I can do without just casting a lead weight and bolting it over the rear wheel moving the battery to back will be helpful. Its somewhat hard to get weight out of the front though, there is just so much stuff up there. Andrew That's right Andrew, and you have a rear mounted radiator which should help. But it can be done by moving the axels if other design considerations allow it. You can move the front axel forward, but these things already have a wheel base that tends to be long in relation to size. You can move the rear axel forward as well, which I favor, but it will mean a shorter swing arm that introduces it's own set of problems. As far as moving the battery, I have a lithium ion in mine. It only weighs a couple of lbs. and is of the same dimensions as the lead acid was. I generally had to replace motorcycle batteries ever other year or so. This can be avoided with trickle charger use in winter, but it's a pain. Even after setting for 10 months during this latest series of mods on my trike, no external charging, the 5 year old battery spun the motor faster and longer than a fresh lead acid batter would. No more lead acids for me. Costs a hundred bucks or so, but well worth it.
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Post by CaptainAmerica on Oct 5, 2021 10:11:34 GMT -5
I had a lithium battery, it was super light. And then I some how was in a rush to get to work and left the key in my trike in the aux position and killed the battery about a month after I bought it...and that was the end of that. Still haven't figured how I left the key in it.
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Post by liteway on Oct 5, 2021 11:54:44 GMT -5
Yes, I believe that if for any reason the voltage drops below a certain level, they are not recoverable. 9 volts for mine? That is a big disadvantage I failed to mention.
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Post by noahkatz on Oct 5, 2021 23:05:51 GMT -5
The physics of a reverse trike dictate that front engine/FWD will give the greatest stability and highest performance in all respects - acceleration, braking, and handling. The crux of the matter is that no matter where the CG is, all lateral weight transfer during cornering is at the front, because the single rear wheel cannot resist overturning at all. Therefore for overturn resistance, most of the weight needs to be on the front wheels, otherwise only moderate cornering will completely unweight the front inside wheel. Also for overturning resistance, we aim for low CG. Therefore there's not that much weight transfer to the rear, and per above there's so much weight on the front wheels to begin with that even at max accel there will be more weight and traction at the front than if it were RWD. Another advantage to more weight at the front is that the proportionately stiffer springs and sway bar will give reduce body roll/ better handling. An example of all of the above is the Trihawk, which had 70/30 weight distribution and handled like a formula car www.yellowtrihawk.com/car_and_driver_roadtest.pdf
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Post by liteway on Oct 6, 2021 8:26:07 GMT -5
Thanks for that link. I remember reading that article when it came out. Shame on Harley for buying them then killing them.
I agree with most everything you stated with a couple of exceptions. I do not see the front driver as a better stopper, as having more of the weight forward, especially under braking, it will not be able to make as much use of the contact patch at the rear. Handling is a subjective term, and if simply defined by which can get around a skid pad or race course faster, it probably is a front driver. As you correctly stated, a tadpole trike has all of its roll resistance at the front which results in weight transfer to that end providing the most traction, stability and probably the best absolute cornering power with front drive. However handling can be defined in other ways, such as steering response, and the ability to balance the chassis with the throttle. A front driver, whether with 4 wheels or 3 is a resolute understeerer and applying the throttle in a turn can only widen your line, requiring cranking in more steering lock and slowing steering response. 4 wheeled cars, such as a GTI, can counter this somewhat with stiff anti roll bars at the rear, not an option with a tadpole. And no, in most cases, even moderate cornering cannot completely unload the inside front wheel. It depends on CG, track, wheelbase , roll resistance, etc, but on mine even with its relatively narrow track, it will in most instances, slide before any lifting, it takes deliberate effort to raise that wheel and only possible when accelerating hard out of a tight corner. Given the wider track and slightly greater weight forward on Andrews trike, getting a wheel to lift is virtually impossible, just as I imagine it is on a Trihawk. This has nothing to do with which wheels are being driven, just fore aft weight distribution and the other factors just mentioned. My own trike is as neutral a handler as any 4 wheeled car I have owned, with a tendency to understeer going into corner, especially tight ones, but the chassis can be weighted just about anyway you like coming out of a corner with steering and throttle. It's capable of a 3 wheel drift if that's your thing, though much more easily done on low grip surfaces. Power on rear wheel drifting, though not advisable at higher speeds due to instability, is one of the more fun things you do in any vehicle but not an option with front drive. Generalizing bigtime: Front drive tadpoles are safer and get power to the ground more effectively. Rear drive tadpoles are lighter, simpler, more responsive.
It would be great fun autocrossing against a Trihawk. Its wide track front drive would no doubt give a stability advantage, but at the same time force wider turns through the cones. Not to say mine would be quicker, but likely more agile, more fun. On a wide turn racetrack, I would not be so confident.
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Post by noahkatz on Oct 6, 2021 13:51:23 GMT -5
I agree with your disagreements In particular, I was wrong about braking; obviously that would be maximum if at max decel each tire had 1/3 of the weight. > And no, in most cases, even moderate cornering cannot completely unload the inside front wheel. To clarify, I was talking about what could happen if you *didn't* bias the weight sufficiently toward the front. What's your weight distribution w/driver? I'm planning on building something like the Morgan 3 Wheeler, and actually I'm torn between FWD and RWD. RWD would be a la Morgan with driveshaft to bevel box (I'd use a Goldwing final drive) and belt drive to rear wheel, or like the Liberty ACE that angles the driveshaft over to a complete Goldwing rear swingarm assy. Both of those steal room from the cabin, but gives the ability to steer with the throttle, and iffy traction. FWD addresses those, but adds the unsprung weight of halfshafts and CV joints.
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Post by liteway on Oct 6, 2021 14:37:14 GMT -5
Yes, if you don't have sufficient weight forward it will become unacceptably unstable. I wound up 55/45 more by chance than design. That is with the current heavier Ca am Spyder parts up front. With the prior lightweight ATV front end components, it had a 3 inch narrower track and 52.5/47.5 weight balance. This gave me a unique opportunity to see what affects these factors have on a trike. The old setup was more nimble with more traction, better riding but was noticeably less stable and badly underbraked with mere 6" rotors.
With higher power, I would go with more weight out back to get more traction but not without a wider track to maintain some stability. With less power or with what I have I think 55/45 is as good a compromise as any.
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Post by CaptainAmerica on Oct 9, 2021 20:51:44 GMT -5
I agree with most things being said here, and I will just say that Liteway is correct that I have never felt the remotest feeling that the inner wheel was close to coming off the ground under hard cornering in the Spartan. I personally think the street bike engine/trans rear end is an engineering marvel of power to weight and I think not using it for a trike application is just bad design, although putting the engine next to the driver has some interesting applications which I have seen in both trikes and 4 wheel cars.
I feel that the slingshot and other types of designs that use a front engine/front drive are noticeably heavier overall which I think is hard to get away from, also I think that putting the occupants that far back looks strange with a single rear wheel because it makes the overall chassis too wide. The Morgan is a rarity in this type of design as it seems to keep the proper look without having a massive engine out front.
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Post by liteway on Oct 12, 2021 7:20:07 GMT -5
Something else worth mentioning on this topic; side to side balance is more critical with 3 wheels as opposed to 4. A side by side with driver only will have an advantage in left hand corners and a disadvantage in right hand corners. The smaller and narrower the trike, the greater the difference which can result in wildly inconsistent handling, magnifying stability issues inherent in reverse trikes. Best strategy for a side by side is jamming rider and passenger together as close to the middle as possible. All the production reverse trikes are done this way, T Rex, Morgan, Vanderhall. Hi performance RTs make more sense as single seaters, though I will not deny what side by side proponents might say, that it's ultimately more fun with a passenger aboard, even if the performance envelope shrinks a bit. Manufactures go where the market is and there seems to be little or no market for single seaters. Just be aware of the compromises.
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Post by davej98002 on Oct 12, 2021 15:34:48 GMT -5
The original MEV Exo-Eco was a tandem seat powered by a Burgman 250cc Scooter engine, Common in Europe. When Stuart Mills sold the plans to Scott, Scott redesigned it to a single center seat and added a Burgman 400cc scooter engine. Back in 2013-14 when I tried to buy the whole thing from Scott I was going to upgrade it wider and add side by side seating with a Burgman 650 engine or a Honda Silverwing 600.
This trike kit was very well balanced, just DOWN on power for most even with a 400cc engine. Yes it would do 80 MPH if you pushed it hard and at that speed it was not stable and needed some suspension upgrades, Castor/Camber and a swaybar would have helped.
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Post by Admin on Oct 25, 2021 8:00:40 GMT -5
Just a thought about stability on trikes. My ryker is designed with front suspension with almost no movement at all. I built a truss that would measure front suspension movement and found the ryker uses only 1 to 2 inches in normal driving. It also quits moving at higher speeds, and it just slides sideways a bit without any body lean. when the speed is above 70 mph the trike shakes quite a bit. I now just use the ryker as my round town ride. Building a large basket for the trike so i can go parts shopping. Looking for some softer shocks to see what happens to the suspension.
FYI, I got rid of the ryker seat(a most unpleasant seat) and replaced it with a honda shadow 750 seat. Still reworking the frame attachment points using 4mm sheet aluminum( yes, it's overkill)because a 4x6 ft sheet cost $40 at the scrap metal place. I have some 2mm sheet but i'm afraid it will bend with my 200 lb's on the seat. Maybe later try using the 2mm to see if it holds up. I taped the balance sensor to the inside of the frame rail.
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